[Please stand by for realtime captions.]
>> Test, test, test. 
>> If you're at home or in a public place, please remember to hit star to mute your phone and we will be getting started in just a little bit after 2:00. 
>> Good afternoon folks. We are coming up on a 2:00. We have somebody out there who has their phone on -- unmuted or  the computer microphone unmuted or -- we are getting a lot of talk in the background.  If folks want to gather around the computer screen were it's nice and warm and mute those microphone that would be great. And mute your phone with star six. We always encourage folks to use the phone because of the audio quality is better. I am hearing some pretty heavy echo out there. Please mute your microphone. You cannot hear the echo but anybody else can. That's a funny way about how feedback works. You never know you are the person. We are going to start in a couple of more minutes. We always have folks that come in right at the top of the hour. 
>>*Six, mute your phone. The worst thing you can do is to put us on hold because then we all have to hear your hold music and it has happened before during these broadcast, believe it or not. 
>> That was some pretty good music about. 
>> Oh, everybody's taste Barry. 
>> I know some of you are new to our system and that's great. This is a big turnout and in part is a big turnout because we really broadcast out the news about this webinar today so I know folks are itching to get started so yes, very hot topic so I want to get started. Hopefully the folks who are still having a little bit of trouble can work out there audio issues. Again, I highly recommend the phone and speakerphones and turning off those computer devices and I will give if you other technical instructions. Good afternoon everyone and welcome to the October 2015 to -- transportation a library . I met the national transportation library and I have with me today my cohost, Bob Cullen of the American Association of State  Highway and transportation officials. Better known as ASHTO and we are welcoming the national transportation knowledge network and thank you to Bob for helping to pull this particular TLR together. Today's presentation  is accessibility for document creators and providers and are speaker today is Kevin Barnes. Before I turn it over to my cohost, Bob Cullen, to introduce Kevin, I want to make a few technical and logistical announcements. Today's TLR  is being recorded. Is being recorded. The transcript and any slides and handouts and other related materials will be deposited into the transportation library Roundtable collection in the digital repository and the depository will be available next week and we will send out that link because I had all kinds of emails from folks who cannot make it today who want to watch this presentation. The best way to enjoy the audio feed for this presentation is beyond your phone. The phone number is posted on the upper left and Warner, 877-336-1274 and if you're using your phone please remember to mute your computer speakers like by clicking the Adobe connect the speaker icon and changing that from green to white and this will prevent echo feedback across your phone from your computer if you see a little green speaker thing up in the center of your screen, near the top of your screen, click on that and will it will change to white. I will encourage participants to use the phone to ask questions during the discussion portion which will him and about 35 or 40 minutes and please remember to press*six to mute or unmute your phone. Finally, if you need to step away from the TLR or to take another call,  please please please do not put the TLR phone line on hold.  That may force the rest of us to listen to your hold music and some people have better hold music than others. Thank you very much. If you are using computer audio, via voice over IP we recommend you use a set of headphones if possible to minimize the opportunity for causing feedback over your computer's microphone or to turn down your computer microphone if you can find that setting in your computer. I know Michael Satz has made that part of the finding. For those of you who have difficulty hearing, the TLR is now equipped with  life captioning which you can see scrolling at the bottom of the screen. The transcript of these captions will be available in the ROSA P record for this session.  The one that goes live next week. You may use the chat pod in the lower left corner of your screen at any time to make questions or comments and Bob and I will be monitoring that chat and will make sure any questions you ask are brought to the attention of Kevin later on. Again, Kevyn is going to present  through the slides and then we will take time for questions and with that, thank everybody for coming and I want to hand the megaphone over to Bob Cullen to introduce our speaker. 
>>  Thank you and welcome everyone. I appreciate you taking the time to join us today. I would like to now introduce distinguished speaker and his bio. 11 is the manager of library services at the Texas Department of transportation research library which has operated at the center for transportation research at the University of Texas at Austin and Kevin has served as the webmaster since 2010. Her focus is on the capture of knowledge, cataloging and dissemination of transportation research materials and information particularly beyond web services. She actively works with the tax dot research and technology limitation division to develop and improve library web resources and oversees the library's social media and other methods of outreach. In 2014 the University of Texas at Austin mandated that all websites on this domain needed to meet minimum of accessibility scores of 90% compliance with the WC AG 2.0 level AA for statutory requirements in Texas administration of code 206.70 accessibility standards. TAC 206.70. Because the library's catalog made up almost half of the centers web pages, she was responsible for bringing the centers score up from 24% compliance to over 90% in just a few months. Now that the website has achieved a stable score of 99% conformance, she has turned her focus to the electronic documents that the library host for free online access. Although not an expert in the field of accessibility, she will relay what she has learned and provide information about tools that she uses to create accessible documents. Before I hand over the microphone to Kevyn I want to just  add a couple of quick things. Kevyn , even though she has more than a handful with all of these priorities in the work she has been doing that at her own place of employment she has also been a very valuable member of the larger transportation library and community and she had been involved with the TRB list committee and she has also done exemplary work as far as I'm concerned with respect to the SLA transportation division just really keeping those efforts moving forward. As those of you who attended the SLA conference this past June can hopefully testify this was the conference in Baltimore, it was a great job in terms of her activities and on behalf of the transportation division. Overall we are very fortunate to have Kevyn  as a member of our community and all of us are extra fortunate to be able to learn from her and from our presentation today, accessibility for document creators and providers. Without any more delay,  here is our speaker for today, Kevyn Barnes. 
>>  Hello and thank you Bob. That was very kind introduction. I'm really thrilled to see so many people on the call and a few people were interested in this, usually we just have a notice of saying librarians on the call. And very happy to see this turnout and I hope that if you can put in the comments, some of your transportation centers, I would really like to see where everybody is coming from. Could you put up the first poll really quick while I do this first technical introduction? 
>> Yes. If you let me manage that pot for just a second, that will help and I will get the poll up there. 
>> I do want to put your attention to the upper left-hand corner, next to the microphone, there is a little person holding a hand up. Lease feel free to use that as I go through the slide. I am trying to [Indiscernible] but if I slip into my various slow southern drawl, please use that icon as I might need it. Let's see. I have a couple of polls right up front just to see where everybody is coming from. And how you think about accessibility. So I'm not an expert in accessibility but I have been researching and trying to teach myself different tips and taken a few workshops and I can share the information I have so it's a little bit easier for you to start, if you have not looked into it. We will give a few more seconds on this poll. Just to see if you know somebody who has faced accessibility issues. I'm looking at the results here. A lot of you do know people who have an issue that needs to be addressed. That looks good. Leighton, if you would like to put the results up,  looks like maybe some people are still answering. 
>> The results should now be alive. 
>> I'm glad to see many of you say that you don't know if there might be people around you who have an issue. It's nice to know that several people have a coworker employee that they know needs some help with documents. Let's try one more poll, before I get started. Leighton,  the second poll. 
>> Just to see what kind of documents you might be working with. If you create documents, and you post them online yourself. If you take other people's documents and post them online, if you share documents like in the library, we share a lot of documents with clients and patron and we usually try to put a little bit of metadata in their in case the person needs that. It looks like the majority of you do all of these things. Most create and post and provide documents. If you can put the results up as well. 
>> They should be life. 
>> I'm pretty much addressing every issue here. I really appreciate all the comments. I see there is a lot of devotees and --  DOT and  UCC online. So accessibility affects all documents that you create whether it's a research report, a presentation, an event flyer or handout, and if it's going to be electronic, you need to think of that accessibility and the content even if it's public Internet access or behind a payroll, and if you don't know if your coworkers have colorblindness, you may want to think about accessibility even for your internal document. Correct me if I'm wrong, Leighton but I believe now that  DOT requires  even official internal documents to be accessible, even if they are only on the intranet. We need to start thinking about these things before we start delaying the process of getting [Indiscernible] for our research reports. 
>> As you all know pretty much accessibility deals with eyes, ears, hands, I don't have the representation of hearing issues here because I'm not going to talk about audiovisual material, but colorblindness, low vision, blindness, and possible physical limitations such as Parkinson's disease or think about veterans with injuries. This could affect anybody with her motor skills where they are not very good on a mouse or a keyboard. The things we want to talk about with accessibility and documents deal with making information perceivable. You may have a pretty graphic with eye-popping colors on it that really stands out to you but it's Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Clinton or is Prince William going to be able to see that thing clarity and understand your graphs? They are all colorblind and you need to think about that. Vision impairment is a foreseeable -- can they even tell if it's a picture  on the page that's important to the content? And also with documents we are going to go into whether it's operable. Again with vision impairment, that means if you can see well, you can flip through a tedious really quickly and determine where the links are and determine where the [Indiscernible] are but some other people might use shortcuts if using a screen reader and if the shortcut do not work, they're not getting the same experience that other people are. Physical limitations, I am going to get personal here because this does affect me. I have a condition that gives me tremors in my hands and muscles, very significant spasms sometimes and sometimes I will just throw a fork across the table and I swear not throwing it at anybody but it can get that that sometimes. There are certain things that are difficult for me. For example if a link in a document is just covering one letter or one number, it is very hard for me to hover over that single letter. So it is always helpful if there is another way to get to that link for the bookmark in the document. I'm sorry, I keep hitting the wrong button because I'm used to my PowerPoint. Another reason we maybe here's because he heard about lawsuit for ADA accessibility . Accessibility lawsuits are on the rise and not very long ago, a few years ago, the Department of Justice actually verified that they do consider electronic resources to be part of ADA. It's not just  physical aspects. In those graphs you can see there's a lot of ADA lawsuits and  websites lawsuits only make up a fraction of that and documents even lower but that may change in the future. And it's not just commercial websites affected by that. Is a wide range and state and local government and possibly DOT are going to be affected by it  sometime. In the U.S. there is several different regulations that cover accessibility.  ADA infection  508 and they generally direct you to the WCAG   2.0 accessibility guidelines and there is also individual state relations and to be on them most of us have probably not thought about it until our local policies have forced us to make a change. It is not shaming, it's just when you have not been doing it or you don't think about it but I think once you start factoring in accessibility you will see how effective it is and it gets easier as you go along. 
>> This is my story. As Bob mentioned, I have been webmaster at the library since 2010 and to be honest, I was not thinking about accessibility at all until 2014 and it was right after we had gotten a new online catalog. The center had gotten a brand-new site created by contractors and the University through this new mandate that we meet 90% accessibility. So that put it on my mind and I started working really hard to learn about it and once I got it up to this 98% that it is now, I started thinking about documents because I figured at some point the scans are going to start scanning attachments and sure enough some webmasters now, to save themselves from liability, are rejecting documents if they are not accessible and we have a big notice for this on Monday for the first time. There may be a lot of people online who actually got one of these notices also from the national transportation library. I think Judith is on the line so this came as a bit of a shock and we have been submitting research reports to the repository for quite a while and I figured this was going to come up at some point and sure enough now that the DOT requires all the documents to be accessible,  a lot of us are going to start getting these kickbacks if we are not making these documents accessible. I'm just wondering if any of you have on the line have received one of these notices and if you have, just use that icon to raise your hand or say yes, in the chat box. 
>> Another incentive for accessibility is actually SEO your publication if it's online Google real rank it higher if it's accessible. When you think about it it makes sense because of the screen reader can read it and just to illustrate this, not to take on my own state, but all these documents were created several years ago but when you look at this search result, there is no metadata here and it's very unlikely that anybody is going to click on these even if it did make it to the first page of the search results. In contrast to that, the library has been adding metadata to our PDFs for quite a while. Much richer content and much more likely to be clicked on. It is going to rank higher in search results in a first-place. All you researchers out there know that increased exposure could mean increased citations, that's always good. And also just spreading research as widely as possible is just good for the industry because they can save us a lot of duplication of effort and speed innovation along. 
>> Again, there are all these factors in my presentation is just going to deal with a little bit. Is not going to cover every rule that's out there but it will get you started. And one thing about these rules is they often will say what is good enough. It gives you a list of things that is needed and even if you have all of those factors in your document, it does not mean that it's going to be accessible to everybody per sometimes you might want to factor in if you know somebody else's needs, even if it's not in the regulation, you may want to think about it. With this I will go into a little bit of the training and tips. Don't worry about reading this whole checklist because you will get the PowerPoint later on but this is a guideline of what I'm trying to go over. 
>> I will talk about one that is not on any of the guidelines that I have seen but it affects me so I am going to ask how many of you just let words create your filename for you, which is usually just based on the first line that you have written in your document. I do it when I'm saving documents for myself. It is easy to know what the document is. But what is the problem with this? Once it gets online and you try to share it through email, I have to put the actual filename in my library catalog for you to get the whole text and I see this a lot where different institutions are providing us with links like this. It breaks at the first space and what this means is that somebody with a motor skill problem like myself is going to have to select to copy and paste and that can be pretty difficult sometimes. Also in our catalog, sometimes I get calls from people saying that link is not working and it works fine for me. Nine times out of 10 the problem is that my browser is resolving the space but their browser is not. Think I have noticed it more when using latex --  Linux for some reason. Now I do encode it so there is no spaces but what the problem is with this is that the problem is that the screen reader will actually read all of those encoding symbols so like on this third line, the screen reader will read stress, percent, 2 C percent at least the screen reader I just have. I really don't want to make a low vision reader have to listen to all of us. A better practice is to use something descriptive but also use website punctuation. I see René mentioning that they use the report number for the filename, that's usually the same for us because for DOT  research, people are usually referring to the project number instead of the title. If you don't have a project number, you may want to just use keywords from the title. You can see that these stay together once you have it on the line and you need to provide a link. This is just a better practice if you think about it, please do it because it can cause quite a bit of frustration. 
>> Related to that is when you put hyperlinks into your document. You need to do what people expect. Usually people expect a link to be blue and underlined. Colorblind people at least can recognize that if it's underlined it's probably a link. You don't want to underline things that are not linked in a document. We see a lot of people doing hyperlinks this way, find the report here or click here to see more information. And there is a problem with that on screen readers. They have shortcuts where they can quickly flip through and have all of the links read and if you just use here, they're just going to hear a list of links that are all the same. Click here, here, here. This was news to me and I did not know until earlier this year when I took a four hour training and this was one of the things they mentioned and demonstrated to us. A better practice for this is to put the hyperlink on the actual description. In fact, on this first one I probably should have put the hyperlink over summary report also because it's the actual research report that has the same title then that will be confusing for a screen reader. 
>> I apologize, this is going to be a lot to go through. Even though I'm going to be mostly talk about Microsoft, Word, and PowerPoint, and office 2016 I wanted to take a look at what you have to do if you have already converted your document to PDF and it was not accessible in the first place. There is a really good page from WCAG  that is about 26 different PDF techniques for making it accessible. It provides links here. Some of the basic stuff we do at the library is just putting in PDF properties to add a little bit of metadata. If you just convert from word without titling that metadata in there, it will give you a title that whatever program you created it in and the filename and then usually the login initials, whoever created the document. That is often somebody who has nothing to do with the creation of the report itself. This is really easy to change. You just go to file and properties and you get several different tabs with different information that you can add. Title and author for title eight is required. We always have that. We sometimes add a subject and keywords. I will talk about color a little bit later but in the next few slides the solid red arrows are things that are required and the dashed green arrows are things that are optional. In transportation we really like to use a red and green to show opposing things, stop, go, fast, slow. The problem with this is that colorblind people may have a really hard time determining which is which. My partner is colorblind and I often have to show him what color each is. I just tell him hey, this line is the redline and these are the green. 
>> In the same module, there is a initial view tab and document title is required and then if you're going to add bit marks, I think it's a good practice to show the bit marks tab rate of about. It really helps navigate the document. What this show document title does is that appear in the top bar, it shows the title and the filename which can really be helpful to all of us if we have several tabs open. You do have to show which language which is required and that's in the advanced tab and properties. And then you can add different metadata to your hearts content. Really i don't know, this is what we do with the library. We usually add the publisher and the published day of the report and sponsor. I really like to hear from some of you who are already doing this to see how you do it. If the properties are added, you can verify that they can talk to the computer. This is optional. I find it really useful when I'm cataloguing if somebody has added this information, it really helps with my cataloguing. And then again, bookmarks. They are really easy to add in PDF and very helpful and for everybody. You have to go to the table of content and keep looking back and forth. Usually fits one or two or three pages or it has major sections you want to add bookmarks. 
>> If you are things in PDF. This is the accessible, first you need to find out so you go to the accessibility checker and over here it will give you a list of things that meet accessibility standards and the ones that do not and ones that need to be annually checked. One of the things that needs to be manually check is reading order. This is very often mixed up especially if there are images. As you can see in the middle if you look closely, the images actually going to be read last instead of being in the middle where it's placed in context. To change this, it's fairly easy. You have a panel on the right. You can drag and drop items or delete items so for example, here first there is an extra box. It has no content in it so I just delete that so all you have to do is click on the panel and click delete and that goes away. You have to be careful with this because if the content has text in it, it will disappear from the page itself so you don't want to click on something that actually has content. And then to put the image in the correct reading order I just drag-and-drop in that panel. 
>> That part is easy but tags, structured tasks, they are about 36 different types of tags from paragraph, headings one through six, a different tack for tables and for mathematical formulas. If you look at this one, you can see this is mostly made up of paragraphs and that's obviously not correct because we see that there is a storm headings here but should be there. It should look something like this sample. That can get so complicated with different possible tags and you see how many are just on one page. If you're talking about a 200 page document it is ridiculous. This is why you really want to put headings in your word documents when you're creating your document. All that aside, we will get into Microsoft office accessibility. Using this as an example you can get to the accessibility checker just by going to the file tab and then checking for issues and checking for accessibility. And then he gives you a panel on the right that shows you all your errors are things you need to look at and it's the same in Microsoft Word. You check accessibility and there's a panel where you can check all your errors. Before you start making your documents and then transforming them into PDF there is one warning I have to give you. If you have gone through all those efforts to make sure that they are accessible and then you print to Adobe PDF. When you think about it a printed document, a printed page has now accessibility attached to it and the print function at Microsoft office does the same thing. If you have gone through the trouble of putting all these tags in your document and the converge PDF and it fails the accessibility check this might be what happened. I don't know how many times I might have done that before I took a training that told us this. You already use the export or save as PDF. There are some other ways to do it but these are the most common ones. That will give you a way to add author tag and you can see it's going to keep the structure for accessibility. Images you need to make them perceivable so you need to put alternate text and there's a lot of rules for that and I have a document at the end of this webinar that will -- it needs to be in context.  You just right-click on the image and go to format picture and you can get to the alternate text with that little icon. Researchers usually need to add this because the context, the picture of what's important so you need to add that text. It is the same way in Microsoft Word. There is a problem with smart art, with graphs you create or charts that you create in office. It will make each image a different image that you would have to put alternative text on each image and that does not give you a sense of the entire graph. The best practice on this is to actually create it and then take a screenshot and place it with the screenshot. You can save the editable one at the end of your document and change it but this way you can put one alternate -- one  alt text that describes the entire image and if there is any new text in the image you need to put that in verbatim. If the text is in the image it will not be shown as text to the screen reader unless you do that. Again come Microsoft just showing Microsoft Word is the same as PowerPoint. 
>> With tables, create the table at Microsoft word and then you want to insert a caption using the insert caption. So it's connected to the table. You will see the table properties have a design tab and they layout tab. You want to go to that and select your header and then in the design tab, there is a little checkbox where you can label that as the header and the screen reader will know how to read your table. And then he also always want to put repeating headers and make sure the tables split between pages and that's on the layout tab and repeat headers option. Again these slides will be handed out so you can see them again. 
>> Reading order gave me a lot of problems in this PowerPoint. I did not think about it so after this ironically so you have this selection pain if you need to check reading order, you have this selection pain under a range which is right up front. Easy to get to. And you can see what order everything is going to be read. It is not intuitive. It is in reverse order so the last item on the list is going to be read first. Things were out of place on this page and I had the serve image, reading second and I really wanted each picture to be read and then the text in the picture and the text. I went through and I dragged and dropped the reading order and what makes this easier is that you can change the name so that you can actually describe what the picture is so it's easier to rearrange if you need to in the future. 
>> Headings and tags are much easier in Microsoft Word then they are in Adobe PDF. Hopefully the way that the tags are set up our accessible to you and hopefully you like the font, the default font for your subheading and sub subheadings and all that is usually upfront. What you want to do is when you have a heading, you select the text and then you select the box up front. That box right there, anytime you have a heading, you want your title to be heading 1, we want the chapter headings to be heading 2 and then subheadings heading 3 and this way you can create a table content automatically if you do this and the bookmarks will be created easily. It's really great when you actually have it all set up and if you don't like the fonts, you can change them. You can customize and if you customize a heading 3, it will change all of the heading three in your entire document all at once so you can play around with this and change the local. Color is really important. We should have actually been doing this long before electronic documents you should be looking at color as an example in both of these graphs for the report were stunning in color. Easy to read if you can see and distinguish colors but one thing I like to do is print in grayscale to see -- people maybe printing your document in  grayscale to save money and then they cannot determine what your graph is trying to say. Again, this is people like Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Clinton and Marco Rubio so you want to look at graphs if you -- or at color  and if you are using colors to convey information, you also want to use some other form of the symbols like in graph 2. Even though it's blurry people can see the difference between the lines because they are different symbols. One of my favorite tools is it is color contrast analyzer because you can download it and you can use a color paper anywhere on your computer screen to compare background and see if there are acceptable colors. For instance on this smart chart I can pull up a table of contrast and take this text color in the background and you can see on the screen about it passes most tests. We only have to meet AA so this is fine for our purposes. If I go to the size and duty color contrast it fails on every level and so I will have to change that color so colorblind or low vision has enough color contrast there. The cool thing about this tool is that you can click on this box and actually see what a person who is colorblind might see if they look at this graph. Speaking of color, when I made this presentation initially I had a white background then I changed it to black and then I cannot read any of my links. I need to go in and customize the colors of my theme. By just clicking on the customize color and then playing around with different colors to see what looks good. I finally found a blue so that works and I put it into a another tool which is web aims hyperlink color contrast checker and found out that it went to black so I change that. This is by far not everything but it's some of the basic skills that you will need to learn to make sure it's accessible. I have a lot of checklist on Google docs, I have this document and please edit it if you have better tools that you would like to suggest. And with that, that concludes my tips. Answer had to run through this so fast. Leighton or Bob, if you want to take over  for any comments or questions. 
>> Wonderful. Thank you very much. For this portion of the TLR  I will first call on my cohost, Leighton to say a few words. 
>>  Thank you so much.  Thank you Kevyn that was fabulous and a no for many people who called in, that was a lot of information.  If you have specific questions about how things are operating currently at the national transportation library, if you're one of the folks who got one of the emails this week, rather than -- we are not going to be able to address these questions  today but we are scheduling a virtual office our on Tuesday, November 6, at 2 PM Eastern time and I will send that information out next week when I send out the link to this recorded presentation. You're welcome to bring those questions at that time. For today let's keep questions focused on the more general things working with Microsoft Office and PDF. The sort of things that Kevin presented on and I will be happy to field and working with Judith and the other folks at the national transportation library to field those questions who have specific questions for us so Bob, I will turn it back over to you for discussion. 
>> Any questions or comments for Kevin and if anybody has anything that would like to ask at this time, that will be great. While we are waiting on that, let me just pose this question to you real quick. And this is going back to the my introduction of how you have that challenge of bringing up the minimum accessibility score of 90% compliance and then you started out with 24% compliance. Did you find that daunting? I assume the answer is yes. While it's one of the two or three rules of [Indiscernible] trying to get all the way up from 24% to 90%. 
>> I have to admit I was terrified when I got that email. I was what am I going to do? Mostly a lot of it was just because in the catalog pages repeat and the page template repeats so we times for every results page or record that comes up and honestly the things that brought the score down the most for color contrast so I really had to make a lot of changes with that and I had to work with our software vendor for quite a bit on the catalog side but again, it was really the color contrast that I had to work on the most to find tools for making the colors, the text on different background colors not only pretty to any about the can see and distinguish colors but also distinguish the color. That was the biggest thing and also the alt text images I had to go back and make sure that I always add alt text even when I'm putting in images in the catalog record or anywhere on the website and that kind of thing transfers to documents as well. 
>> I want to bring that to the attention that Leighton provided that  for everyone's reference. Any other questions or comments that you would like to bring up now? 
>> I just wanted to mention that we already or Michael, if you want to get on the line to talk about this but we are going to have some professionals do some webinars maybe from the U.S. access core who can really go into details about the rules and different techniques. 
>> Great. 
>> Any other questions or comments? Again, I cannot thank you enough. You certainly had a lot to take on here with this topic it's a conference of topic and I appreciate how well organized and effectively you were able to present this and I we recognize that in TLR you have less than one hour time to encapsulate all of this  though I do appreciate that and I also appreciate it as well. I want to bring up Leighton's comment  here. A class I took recently gave us a resource for color contrast checker called Pasielo. Thank you for that comment. René McHenry has this comment that she is sharing with everyone. Kevyn is right.  We are looking at other sources of information or presentations from others to help inform us on this issue. Great job. Thank you Renée. And I think Kevyn you note  that the link to the color contrast analyzer is in the Google docs. Thank you for that. Any other questions? I do appreciate one of the points you bring up at the beginning of the presentation,  Kevyn  and this kind of ties in with the polls that you have conducted at that point in the presentation. About those of us who might have firsthand knowledge of people with various challenges in terms of being able to access documents, physical challenges and others with visual challenges. I appreciate your bringing that up and identify recall statistically the majority of responses indicated that there really has not been that kind of experience or need for that but I do appreciate the points you amplified that it really is all the more reason to being ready to anticipate and hopefully I'm summarizing your point correctly. I do appreciate bringing that up because that's one of the key things that part of what we need to keep in mind. Even if the need is not there today, it will be there just down the road so I do appreciate you saying that and fortunately I remembered to highlight that. If there's a specific document accessibility issue we can cover or go into greater depth in future TLR , please suggest them. Let us know your thoughts and recommendations on that. Sandy is asking about tables. I don't know if there's any other questions or comments. I assume we are okay for anyone who might have questions that come to mind later to contact you directly. 
>> Absolutely. That will be fine. And just to comment on the complex tables real quick. The for our training I went to I just said don't do it. It's a real hard thing in our field. One suggestion they did give was to create an image of it and then pulled alt text that explains everything. I don't know if anybody has a better solution, please write in and let us know. 
>> We are just about down to the 2 minutes. Thank you for that important point. As Carol mentioned here, this might be a good TRV presentation cosponsored by the committee and research. Thank you Carol. 
>> We are nearing the end of the hour here so I want to highlight the link for everyone's reference. Thank you Lauren. Michael Molina does mention for some complex tables we split them into multiple tables like you said provide all text explaining how it should be read. Thank you, Michael. And Layton included a link here as well. Unfortunately we are at the end of the our but again, a wonderful presentation from Kevin. Thank you Kevin and also thank you to all of you for your own participation. I'm absolutely floored by the presentation and I appreciate all you taking the time to be with us today and for taking part in this past our. We appreciate that and again one final round of applause on behalf of the MTKN helping to make today's TLR a reality and  working hard behind the scenes. To make all of it happen. Thank you. Right now we are at the top of the hour and I want to quickly mention that the next TLR is going to be taking place  two weeks from today, November eight and Rachel and Roberto of Northwest University library will be given a joint presentation and their libraries for transportation research guide so please mark your calendars for that and we will provide further details. Thank you to all of you and have a great rest of the day. 
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